Losing your mind - The greatest fear known to mankind.

SWM

May 2008
2,314
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[quote author=ozziemate link=topic=924.msg4699#msg4699 date=1248512047]
you are missing something of immense proportion to the subject. at this point the patient is already ill. persecution and intimidation fears are in response to the symptoms of psychosis. using auditory hallucinations as an example. A patient hearing voices is not hearing voices because they fear they are going mad. they hear voices and then they may fear they are going mad. speaking generally of course not all cases will be as clear cut as that. other patients may hear voices and believe they are in communion with god. fear of madness as far as i am aware is not a recognised feature of psychotic disorders. it is a recognised feature of the anxiety disorders.
And what do you believe is the patients state of mind leading up to onset of such symptoms as auditory hallucinations?[/quote]individuals are unique and the development of psychosis will be unique to that individual, there are certain recognised precipitating factors, but not everybody that develops a psychotic illness will experience those precipitating factors. for some people their symptoms are spontaneous without any precipitating factors. to use my own illness as an example the precipitating factors was an attempted murder on myself, my fear was founded in reality people did want to kill me, my paranoia grew from people wanting to kill me to everybody wanting to kill me. my delusions and hallucinations developed around this idea that i was marked for death. during this time i never once questioned my own sanity. my psychosis began to develop after two years of living in this state of fear. schizophrenia was diagnosed in the third year.


Normally a person just doesn't go from being "normal" and healthy of mind to hallucination with out some degradation.
this is true but the degradation you speak of is not necessarily "the of fear of losing ones mind".


It is proposed that that initial degradation is caused by the onset of paranoia, due to either no advice, bad advice, over emphasis on sensational medical opinion and statistics and so on....leading eventually to the state where the mind is now over loaded with the stresses associated and starts to express itself vividly not only in an auditory fashion but also often in a visual fashion.
paranoia can devleop for many reason besides those that you present here.


Also it is as I said in the maintenance of a healthy mind that fear plays a significant role in keeping things in check so to speak. It is when this fear based maintenance becomes extreme due to fears and stresses that paranoia sets in leading to severe situations such as those you have described.
So yes at this stage the horse "fear" is well before the cart...and as yet I have not found reason to change my opinion.
i dont dispute the fact that fear is a preciptiating factor, what i do dispute is fear of losing ones mind being THE factor, which is what you seem to be suggesting in your posts above.

Also as a nother angle....
Most "normal " people constantly suffer minor glitches in their perceptions and think nothing of it. Hear sounds that don't have any reality to them and generally treat them as inconsequential and like wise with visual errors of perception.
I am suggesting that when a person starts to consider these routine and insignificant errors with emphasis we can start to see paranoia and fear of losing your mind set in to the point where the whole tapestry of mental order can be fragmented.
i do agree with this only to the point where you say fear of losing the mind, if you have ever worked with patients during acute phases of pscyhotic illnessess you will recognise that they do not have any fear of losing their mind. most often they do not believe there is anything wrong with them. the psychotic patient does not have insight into the fact they are ill. they believe that their delusions and hallucinations are real. this is fundamental aspect of the definition of psychosis.
 
Jan 2009
104
0
Melbourne Australia
[quote author=voodoo scientist link=topic=924.msg4701#msg4701 date=1248526774]
[quote author=ozziemate link=topic=924.msg4696#msg4696 date=1248477908]So yes when I have tested the statement The fear of loosing control or the fear of losing ones mind is at the root of all sentience I do not mean it lightly or in non-absolute terms. I am referring to it as the essence of what maintains "sanity" [order] and that when it is dysfunctional "insanity" [chaos] is the outcome.[/quote]

We're not quite on the same wavelength, but I think we're at least in the same ballpark. Where we differ exactly is in this quote: you are saying that the question of control is at the root of all sentience. I am saying that it has nothing to do with sentience at all - like a global red herring.
[/quote]

can I ask how this quote from the OP sits with you?
It seems that every minute of the day is spent ensuring order in our lives is maintained. It appears that a great percentage of our energy is devoted to this constant task. For some it is relatively easy being blessed with great circumstances and life style with adequate support and nurturing. For others it can be extremely difficult when living in precarious surrounds, little certainty about what the future holds and self destructive relationships.
and ask if you agree with it's general thrust what emotions are involved "driving" that desire for order?
and then go on to define what sentience means. If there is chaos can sentience exist?
Ever witnessed catatonia? Is a catatonic patient sentient?
 
Jan 2009
104
0
Melbourne Australia
[quote author=SWM link=topic=924.msg4703#msg4703 date=1248538117]
[quote author=ozziemate link=topic=924.msg4699#msg4699 date=1248512047]
you are missing something of immense proportion to the subject. at this point the patient is already ill. persecution and intimidation fears are in response to the symptoms of psychosis. using auditory hallucinations as an example. A patient hearing voices is not hearing voices because they fear they are going mad. they hear voices and then they may fear they are going mad. speaking generally of course not all cases will be as clear cut as that. other patients may hear voices and believe they are in communion with god. fear of madness as far as i am aware is not a recognised feature of psychotic disorders. it is a recognised feature of the anxiety disorders.
And what do you believe is the patients state of mind leading up to onset of such symptoms as auditory hallucinations?[/quote]individuals are unique and the development of psychosis will be unique to that individual, there are certain recognised precipitating factors, but not everybody that develops a psychotic illness will experience those precipitating factors. for some people their symptoms are spontaneous without any precipitating factors. to use my own illness as an example the precipitating factors was an attempted murder on myself, my fear was founded in reality people did want to kill me, my paranoia grew from people wanting to kill me to everybody wanting to kill me. my delusions and hallucinations developed around this idea that i was marked for death. during this time i never once questioned my own sanity. my psychosis began to develop after two years of living in this state of fear. schizophrenia was diagnosed in the third year.


Normally a person just doesn't go from being "normal" and healthy of mind to hallucination with out some degradation.
this is true but the degradation you speak of is not necessarily "the of fear of losing ones mind".


It is proposed that that initial degradation is caused by the onset of paranoia, due to either no advice, bad advice, over emphasis on sensational medical opinion and statistics and so on....leading eventually to the state where the mind is now over loaded with the stresses associated and starts to express itself vividly not only in an auditory fashion but also often in a visual fashion.
paranoia can devleop for many reason besides those that you present here.


Also it is as I said in the maintenance of a healthy mind that fear plays a significant role in keeping things in check so to speak. It is when this fear based maintenance becomes extreme due to fears and stresses that paranoia sets in leading to severe situations such as those you have described.
So yes at this stage the horse "fear" is well before the cart...and as yet I have not found reason to change my opinion.
i dont dispute the fact that fear is a preciptiating factor, what i do dispute is fear of losing ones mind being THE factor, which is what you seem to be suggesting in your posts above.

Also as a nother angle....
Most "normal " people constantly suffer minor glitches in their perceptions and think nothing of it. Hear sounds that don't have any reality to them and generally treat them as inconsequential and like wise with visual errors of perception.
I am suggesting that when a person starts to consider these routine and insignificant errors with emphasis we can start to see paranoia and fear of losing your mind set in to the point where the whole tapestry of mental order can be fragmented.
i do agree with this only to the point where you say fear of losing the mind, if you have ever worked with patients during acute phases of pscyhotic illnessess you will recognise that they do not have any fear of losing their mind. most often they do not believe there is anything wrong with them. the psychotic patient does not have insight into the fact they are ill. they believe that their delusions and hallucinations are real. this is fundamental aspect of the definition of psychosis.

[/quote]
Firstly we shall have to agree to disagree...so that discussion can continue...agree?

Secondly I feel you are looking at the issue of psychosis superficially and from a conscious [ at the time ] persepctive.
I am attempting to look considerably deeper into the issue and note as an example that every new born baby most likely comes into the world in a state of fear....and that every person you meet in the street or online is also in a constant state of fear that may or may not be present with emphasis in their conscious thoughts as it is a part of every day life from the day we are born to the day we die.
If we can agree to the above we may be able to move forward. If we can't then we can't.
 

SWM

May 2008
2,314
0
i realised last night that i was doing something which i usually do not do, i was debating about whether something is true or not.

i think because this subject is so personal to me, this is my life and my work, my illness has made me who i am and i care very much about the people i work with, and so i found myself drawn into this debate.

OM
when i remembered myself last night i realised that what you (OM) believe is true, and if you base a methodololy on what you believe and it works and if you can impart what you believe to your patients with the same level of conviction as yourself, then your methodology will be successful.
 
Jan 2009
104
0
Melbourne Australia
[quote author=SWM link=topic=924.msg4707#msg4707 date=1248593553]
i realised last night that i was doing something which i usually do not do, i was debating about whether something is true or not.

i think because this subject is so personal to me, this is my life and my work, my illness has made me who i am and i care very much about the people i work with, and so i found myself drawn into this debate.

OM
when i remembered myself last night i realised that what you (OM) believe is true, and if you base a methodology on what you believe and it works and if you can impart what you believe to your patients with the same level of conviction as yourself, then your methodology will be successful.
[/quote]
yes indeed it is personal, no doubt about it.
As to whether of not what I have proposed is true is really only going to be found by the test of time, the natur of Truth being always elusive. However be that as it may, possibly it is true-er than what we have so far and that may be a step forward in the right direction.

Thinking on it today I realised I had forgot to discuss the main reason I tended towards this position on fear.

I found after some deep introspection years ago that it is the metaphysical nature of the mind to worry and worry about every thing that touches it. It is it's nature to dissect, to analyse an to solve problems only because if it does not the problems remain unsolved nor understood to the detriment of the thinker. [ nothing new about any of this but had to find out myself hey]
This is normally even for relatively healthy people a part of our nature we always monitor. [ how much we are worrying about things] but when something unusual touches us , whether that be change of an unusual kind or extremes of a psychic nature [ mind revelations] the worrying can intensify enormously and lead to significant degradation of a persons ability to function. Obsessive Compulsive disorder is one such complaint. Persistent worrying can be addictive and intractable unless treated with appropriate therapy.

Excessive worrying is inevitably the outcome of paranoia or irrational reactions to that which we fear and most of the time it has an ego or self esteem foundation to it. IMO
So psychosis can be generated by the fear of being disbelieved or the fear of losing credibility or the fear of entrapment, conspiracy an worrying about things that others do not concern themselves too much about excessively.
As evidenced by mass hysteria pheno. shown on certain occassions fear is also "contagious" and can generate fear. The fear of fear etc etc...

So yes , I tend to feel that it is something that needs a thorough look at and considerable research before any really strong conviction can be made, but it is worth having a good look at IMO.
With out the coherency to understand what we are aware of. To exist with out order in our thoughts so that we can "live" in our own picture is essentially what this fear of losing our minds is. That one day we shall wake up and all we take for granted will have scrambled into a irrational and chaotic mess and that our lives are over even though we are still living.
As you SWM know this is a dreadful state of mental condition and one all of us fear ever having to go there. YOU have and you have survived and a pat on the back is warranted for doing so and doing so so well and most importantly managing to come back to reality with the maturity and wisdom gained that only suffering can grant you.
Not many people [ only 55% on last count] survive this issue enough to lead reasonably successful lives [ usually heavilly medicated]. If fear based therapies were established in a proper therapeutic environment the percentage of success could be significantly improved upon. Especially if exposure therapy was conducted in a realistic way. It is however a very long process of recovery, and most family and medical professionals have not the resources to devote >10 years to helping someone achieve success. This is a sad truth..

When most people are diagnosed they are usually not informed about the length of time necessary to treat these types of psychoytic conditions using current methods. Telling a patient who has had an onset that he will be sick for at least 10 years if all goes well before getting a glimmer of success is usually a death sentance...It takes time and usually signifcant amounts of time to get into a routine that inspires recovery and most families and patients just don't like that idea at all...so a bandaide called anti-psychotic medication is applied for the quickest fix with no to little therapy applied or given [ theraputic outcomes are historically poor if I am nto mistaken]. And well what that means is good for another thread....
 

SWM

May 2008
2,314
0
VoodooS said:
I believe the particular assumption you've latched onto in this case is the concept of a "self", "soul" or other cohesive identity - if there is a self, there's control, so there's control to be lost - if there is no self, "control" doesn't even apply, so you can't lose it.

If that sounds like what you're publishing, then good luck with it. If not, then I'll start a separate thread.
looking forward to it, :D
 
Jan 2009
104
0
Melbourne Australia
Yes we have in the State of Victoria, Australia what are called C.A.T. teams [ Crisis Assessment and Treatment] These teams of qualified mental health professionals will respond if possible to any crisis that has occurred. Their main goals are in order of priority are containment, management and transportation and hospital bed facilitation. Tough job IMO.