How do YOU deal with depression?

Jan 2012
40
0
New York
@SWM

"i would not use the term psyche myself in the context of discussing a clinical presentation such as the one in this topic."
I can't imagine why. Renee's OP isn't clinical. Removing the psyche from clinical studies or presentations instantly renders the study useless for most people
suffering from depression. Although I can see why pharma and people looking for grant money would poo poo the psyche.

I'm not sure how
hd.media.mit.edu/tech-reports/TR-595.pdf
sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070905203624.htm
nature.com/nrn/journal/v11/n7/abs/nrn2867.html
answers what I said:
"So you're saying when "depression" is measured as a physical state, the individual will ALWAYS report a psychological depression?"
The third isn't the full artical, unless I pay. The source of the second won't open.

As for hd.media.mit.edu/tech-reports/TR-595.pdf
it's incredible--at making me depressed.

OH. MY. GOD. Barbarism!
I thought this crap stopped in the 50s.
Apply electroconvulsive therapy to depressed people and observe how it changes them.
That helps who???

It completely ignores how the mind contributes to depression, i.e. what one thinks, feels, their relationship/responses to their internal experience, how
much is repressed, fixation, just to name a few.
But of course, you can't measure those things without the inaccuracy of self reporting (and the study heavily depends on self reporting).
Any symptoms of depression described in the study can have different causes. It's impossible to determine conclusive cause and effect
so you can't really say what, if anything, is "working."

I think the article supports my point.
"there are currently no objective measures based on physiology or behavior that can be used for making a definitive diagnosis for depression"

There's an inherent chicken or egg debate in the approaches to treating depression:
It's cause and cure is physical.
No, it's cause and cure is psychological.
No one knows but I think the moral approach is to first study and exhaust all methods psychological. That's not happening.
AND science is not equiped for those studies. It takes good old trial and error and common sense, primarily on the part of the depressed person.
Somatic therapy is showing promise. It's growing even though it's a grass roots effort.
But pharma, and their bitch universities, wouldn't put money into something like that.
So we get ever more pills and electroconvulsive therapy for crying out loud.
 

SWM

May 2008
2,314
0
[quote author=sorter link=topic=3056.msg22216#msg22216 date=1351964499]
@SWM

"i would not use the term psyche myself in the context of discussing a clinical presentation such as the one in this topic."
I can't imagine why. Renee's OP isn't clinical. Removing the psyche from clinical studies or presentations instantly renders the study useless for most people suffering from depression. Although I can see why pharma and people looking for grant money would poo poo the psyche.
[/quote]the term psyche is obsolete in modern psychology. thats all.


It completely ignores how the mind contributes to depression, i.e. what one thinks, feels, their relationship/responses to their internal experience, how much is repressed, fixation, just to name a few.
in order to retreive the baby that was thrown out with the bath water.
feeling and emotion are both physiological. there are means of measuring states of physiological arousal or lack of, in depressed patients.



There's an inherent chicken or egg debate in the approaches to treating depression:
It's cause and cure is physical.
No, it's cause and cure is psychological.
No one knows but I think the moral approach is to first study and exhaust all methods psychological. That's not happening.
it is not either/ or, it is both.

But pharma, and their bitch universities, wouldn't put money into something like that.
So we get ever more pills and electroconvulsive therapy for crying out loud.
if this is the case you are looking in the wrong place for treatment for depresssion. I am in the UK and we have psychological treatments for depression which are very strongly supported by evidence (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3212920/ ). as stated in my previous post expected recovery rates are in the region of 50%-70% (see http://publications.nice.org.uk/depression-in-adults-quality-standard-qs8)


these references should be readable to anyone without access to academic journals.
 
Oct 2012
4
0
Thanks Sorter, SWM and Leutenant for your answers.

Unfortunately, i still haven't even begun to recover from depression. I sometimes have a half-a-day when i feel more active and happy than others but that never lasts longer than 6 hours and I quickly feel tired and lethargic and disconnected. Every time I get up it is a struggle and communicating with people feels like having to go deal with some lengthy and difficult paperwork.

My health is declining day by day and all the doctors I've gone to can see that there's some stress or depression or insomnia or something or the other.

I'm sick and tired of being so dead. In the times when I felt a pull to life, I would go to the gym, to the pool, hang out with a friend, but then i feel like I've just wasted time and get more upset and just hate everything.

I was in a very bad suicidal state 4 days ago after fighting with a few friends (because I behaved badly as the screwed up person that I am) and I was going to finally do it. It was very hard to get myself to come out of those feelings and I'm still not fully out.

Can someone please give me some steps to take to somehow start to come out of all this and not feel so hopeless?
 

SWM

May 2008
2,314
0
Hi Renee,
Sorry I have not responded to your origina questions.

What have your doctor's done for you so far?
 
Oct 2012
4
0
Sorry for the long post, please bear with me.

A year after my sister died, I was still extremely depressed and was losing other people around me. One day it got to be too much and I tried to kill myself by suffocating. My mother walked in on me that time and stopped me and took to a shrink.

I've been to 2 psychologists and a psychiatrist. I only saw the first one once because he was extremely overpriced and and wasn't paying any attention to what I was saying and looked like he had somewhere better to be.

The second one had a more decent price and had actually fooled me into thinking that he wants to help. He spent many sessions asking me about my past, digging into details that I had never even thought or been concerned about. But I understood that, trying to believe that maybe he knows what he is doing and I'm not able to understand certain things myself.

Then he tried to do behavior therapy and made me keep a journal and whatnot and went on for numerous sessions trying to explain to me things that I already understand. And he kept telling me not to watch angry films or listen to angry music or games etc... saying that they make you more angry and interfere with your sleep but I am not the kind of person who sits down and watches romantic comedy or plays tetris. I have always found it easier to express myself through my video games and such and trying to do what my dr told me just made me feel like I'm betraying myself further. So after I stopped going to him, I went back to the things I loved.

After over 2 years of wasted time, he referred me to a psychiatrist who put me on medication which made me much more depressed and I attempted suicide for the second time with that same medication. Reading my suicide email, some people called emergency and they had to pump my stomach etc..

I didn't go back to the psychiatrist after that. And neither can I afford to.

I am really trying hard to keep myself together right now. I feel like there's barely any hope left in the world. I keep thinking of just ending it. And not by things they can stop. This time I want to jump off the 50 story building across the street. This comes and goes in waves. There are times I feel better but those are just episodes and I've just become a depressed person, its not a state for me or a mood anymore. I don't come out of it
 
Nov 2008
2,536
0
U.S.A.
Hey Renee, I am Earl. I am bi polar and have to deal with depression at times. I have found sometimes I just have to let it take its course. Other times I try to stay busy and read or do things that make me feel good about myself. Doing things to help other people helps alot. It makes me feel needed and that helps. Or blogging like on this sight has helped as well. I also take vitamins. Every day. If I forget I am much more likely to be depressed. I also pray and meditate and focus on balancing my energy. Clearing my mind of everything helps me to recharge and start a new. I have had a number of deaths lately and health problems. So I have been dealing with it alot. I understand the feeling of despair. I have tried to commit suicide a number of times as well. Something seems to always be in place to stop me or save me though. Depression is a disease that isn't apparent. Also I agree with you about doctors in general. I have found a number who are not interested in curing a patient. They only want to treat so they keep getting paid. Not all doctors are like that. I think you just got some bad ones. Chocolate is something I use as well. I eat a little piece when I am sad and it helps. I wish you luck. The most important thing is if you feel suicidal. Don't be alone. You don't have to tell the other person, but if you are with someone it decreases the odds of you doing anything. Take care and be blessed. Earl
 
Jan 2012
40
0
New York
@renee
The most insidious thing I've found with long-term depression is the complete lack of hope.
These people, to the core, don't believe they can pull themselves out of it.
That in itself is depressing.

It can be frustrating for me. I offer many effective techniques but they just won't try them. There's always an excuse.
As for pills, they should be a last last last resort, and a temporary one (I don't know you. Maybe you need antidepressants. I hope not).
Pills don't help at all. They only get you to a state where other therapies can work.

Please realize, if you don't treat yourself, you're subject to "help" that doesn't really help, as you've seen with your therapist(s).
No psychotherapy helps or cures. It assists you in helping or curing yourself.
I'll bet you have received more than enough good advice for how you can work on your depression.
You just need to pick one that speaks to you and work it. And have faith that you can do it.
 
Jan 2012
40
0
New York
@SWM

Unaccounted for Variables in Most Any Study of Psychology
We don't know what any individual means, exactly, when they report they are depressed. Is it:
- physical or psychological (can you really separate the two),
- from life long repression, if so what exactly is repression, what type of repression (emotion or thoughts, can you separate the two)
- overwhelming life circumstances (unusual threat, loss of loved ones or means of survival)
- inherited biochemical patterns
- constipation (I'm not kidding)
- did the therapy "help" the client or did going to therapy help the client. (there is a study that shows people improve between the time they make the appointment and going to the first appointment. It was in the 70s, I think, so I can't find it on the internet.)
- God knows how many other causes of the symptoms of depression, why someone would say they are depressed, and how they are actually helped.

Given that, how can anyone say there is "evidence" about the effectiveness of treating depression, or any other psychological ailment.
Even if we say 50-70% is accurate, and ignore the above points, that's not very good. I wouldn't want to hear that from a surgeon as they're putting me under.
If the word "evidence" is used and it is also explained we are mostly guessing, that would be acceptable but that doesn't happen.
People in the field (you apparently) speak of evidence as if it's comparable to evidence in most any science, especially medicine. It simply is not. Not even close.

That is my primary point. Please respond directly to it. I don't think you have. (and I'd rather not play semantics. psyche is no longer used? Maybe in the UK)
Listing links about studies doesn't answer my point when my point is studies in psychotherapy are relatively useless.
Frankly, I think it's dishonest (even criminal considering the money that's involved) of the profession to not point out that their studies don't how hold muster to scientific standards,
and how they are influenced by chemical and pharmaceutical companies.

To be clear, I'm not saying studies are completely useless. If I were suffering and the reviews from those who went to a particular therapy were mostly positive, I would try that therapy.
Just as I read reviews of anything I buy. I would also consider studies, but frankly, I think the reviews would sway me more.
 

SWM

May 2008
2,314
0
when people come for therapy they quite often report that they are suffering from things that they are not really suffering from. so there are a tools developed to help clinicians determine what kind of problems a patient is presenting with. these are not perfect or foolproof but provide guidance for discernment.

usually depression is diagnosed using either the ICD10 or the DSM-IV-tr.
NICE guidelines use ICD10.
People diagnosed with Depression using this diagnostic tool are used in the studies.

recovery means that the person no longer meets the criteria for diagnosis. relapse means that the person has recovered and has returned to meeting the criteria for diagnosis.

Studies are randomly controlled. at least 50% of people receiving the psychological interventions recommended by NICE will achieve recovery.
this is equivalent to pharmacotherapy but with pharmacotherapy there are higher relapse rates than with the recommended psychological interventions.

the quantity and quality of studies required for NICE recommendations is extremely high. this is not an organization set up to to promote their own medicines or therapies.
that all.
 

SWM

May 2008
2,314
0
@Renee

it is a shame that you live in a country that does not provide universal health care. this results in a for profit industry which disadvantages patients/consumers. the best treatments are only available to those who can afford the highest prices. unfortunately this is an unresolvable problem for you and so you are having to find alternatives.


it seems as though one of your psychologist was almost able to help you but spoiled that by not considering your personal qualities and characteristics. ie, helping you to understand simple factors which go in to maintaining depression and starting to build on the skills required to overcome depression but dismissed some of your positive activities and so lost the valuable therapeutic alliance that is necessary for successful therapy.

inline with the evidence that we have been discussing in this thread Cognitive and Behavioral therapies have the best long term recovery rates for depression. i dont know where you live but maybe there is a registering body or licencing body that you can contact for recommendations of CB therapists.

the next best thing is CBT based self help. it is possible to learn the skills that are taught in CBT through self help. Self help materials such as computerized CBT or manualised CBT have been shown to be effective in treating depression. This is not as good as having your own therapist (although that hasnt been great in your case either).

if you want help selecting resources for self help let me know.